“One: if God does not exist, objective moral values do not exist. Two: objective moral values do exist. Three: therefore, God exists,” I said, explaining the moral argument for the existence of God to my a few Christian classmates over Pizz’a Chicago. This argument is one of the oldest and best available to the Theist; for those interested in the argument itself, I would commend you to the work of William Lane Craig. We had just finished a wonderful hike in the mist and trees of the Santa Cruz Mountains and warming up around a fire at my place. We were beginning a lively philosophy discussion. For anyone who knows me, you know that there aren’t too many better possible days. The pizza was delicious (the “Al Capone”; who’d have thought pecans go well on pizza?), and it was looking like it would be the perfect end to a perfect day.
Then there was a person standing over us at the end of our table. It was the man from the next table. He was a short man in his fifties, balding slightly, wearing a full beard with flecks of grey. Surprised, I gave him my attention. He said, “We can hear you from over there. And, you’re wrong!” I suppose I had been a bit loud; it was a pizza joint, after all, and I had to raise my voice to get it across the table. I wondered which of the two premises he disagreed with (I guessed it was the first; this is the approach most Atheists take). I started gesturing for him to join our conversation, but he had already turned around and returned to his seat, next to what appeared to be his high school-aged son and elementary school-aged daughter.
He shot a glance over to me, to see what effect his breach in manners had caused. Perhaps he was hoping for shock, outrage or anger. I don’t think he was expecting polite curiosity. “Which premise?” I asked him. “Both of them!” he shot back, surprised and not looking at me. “Please explain,” I offered politely, again gesturing to the empty seat next to me. At this point, the man came to his senses. He did the most rational thing a mature thinker could have in such a situation: he utterly ignored me.
After this brash interruption of our conversation, I composed myself. I soon continued my exposition of the argument to my friends and the conversation continued pleasantly. All the while, in the back of my mind, I was thinking how to repay this guy. He had interrupted my conversation on a topic which was extremely important. He tried to embarrass me in public and in front of my friends. He wanted to make me look bad and show off to his kids. And then I thought of a way. He’d be so pissed. It would shame him in front of his kids and he’d never be able to get me back. He’d never forget me. Ever. It was perfect.
I called the waitress over, gave her my credit card, and quietly paid for his family’s dinner.
My friends and I finished our pizza, and got up to leave. I walked over to the man’s table while they were still unaware of what I had done and I said warmly, “Enjoy your dinner!” For those unaware of American customs, the proper response would have been something like, “Thank you.” Perhaps this courtesy had shocked the man into silence, or perhaps he was still ignoring me. Maybe his mouth was full. In any case, it was his son who responded with an accusatory tone that ought to be reserved only for the basest of criminals, “You can’t prove God! It’s not falsifiable and therefore false!” Recovering, the man, with what he must have thought was an irrefutable disproof of my argument, said with the confidence of a mathematician delivering the conclusion to a proof, “William of Occam.” Now for those of you who are not experienced in Philosophy, William of Occam is a man and not himself an argument, or at least the words “William of Occam” do not compose a well-formed or convincing argument. But it seemed to be offered as one, which might suggest conversation was actually possible.
I started to respond that proof was possible, but they weren’t listening. I cannot now remember how I knew that they were not listening and desperately wanted me to leave. I don’t have a memory of them covering their ears with their hands, or shouting to drown out my words, or shooing me away like a dog, but however they did it, they communicated as much to me. Then the most unexpected thing of all happened: the daughter, in stark contrast to her family, showed me kindness. She stood up, walked over to me, and gave me a paper craft she had been working on all through dinner.
I walked out of the restaurant smiling. The man and I had battled in the pizza parlor, and I think both of us will remember the day for years to come. And I will treasure my prize, his daughter’s paper craft.
I tell this story for several reasons. First, because it’s an awesome story. Who, but God, can make up the little girl? Second, I hope to inspire more people to execute revenge like Jesus did: through self sacrifice. And third, because not everybody knows that Christianity is unpopular. Not private worship on Sundays; that is indeed safe and mostly unaffected. What raises the tempers and ire of people in and around the University is the public display of the rational Christian Worldview. There are violent reactions when Christian attempt to argue their beliefs are true in the same way science is true (that is, not in just true some lofty, unreal philosophical sense, but they are really true “for reals”).
ReplyDeleteStop! Right now, has your pulse risen? Do you think I’m wrong and are you formulating arguments against me? Has your mood changed? If so, this is exactly what I’m talking about.
Consider my article two years ago here. My argument wasn’t perfect, but look at the firestorm that erupted from the suggestion that matters of Faith could be True. Tonight in the restaurant, I could have shouted profanity, made anti-semetic remarks, talked loudly about sex or any other profane thing and I would not have been bothered by a stranger. But I did something even worse: I suggested that maybe God really existed, and that His existence could really be known and not just believed in. That is truly offensive.
Great story David....I love the ending.....Too bad children have to grow up and have attitudes like the rest of her family.....Maybe you planted a seed??
ReplyDeleteLove you!
Aunt Jackie
I hope that she does grow up differently (she's off to a good start! :)
ReplyDeleteThanks for the comment!
I would love to talk about morality with you for as long as you wish; including the merits of that particular argument, but for now I want to talk about your encounter. I want to talk about you paying money so “he’d be so pissed” and to “shame him in front of his kids and he’d never be able to get me back” and then acting like it was some noble “self-sacrifice.” Where is the self-sacrifice? You could have taken time (a resource) to cuss him out. What is the difference? Because you think buying him dinner is doing something nice for him at your own monetary expense? That’s not what happened at all. Your intent was to emasculate him in front of his family; just like what cussing him out would’ve done. You just did it with money instead of words. Paying money to get revenge doesn’t show self-sacrifice; it shows desperation. I bet you left thinking, “Embarrassing that guy was worth every penny!” You then blogged about it to get attention. Self-sacrifice? Not even close. Don’t act like you took the high road; you didn’t. You both took the low road. Is it not just a little bit ironic that the encounter started with the moral argument for god and then you both fell into such a shameful “showdown”?
ReplyDeleteDo you think you were a good ambassador for Jesus when you did what you did? Will that family be more or less likely to persecute theists going forward? Are they more or less likely to convert to Christianity? Are their souls more or less likely to be saved because of your actions? (I obviously tried to come from a Christian perspective.)
Imagine this blog instead: “Despite the humiliation I felt from his actions, I wanted show my constant love for humanity, the morality of my worldview, and the message of Jesus Christ my savior, so I apologized for interrupting their dinner and I insisted on picking up their tab. I pray he finds space for Jesus in his heart and that he and his family live long and prosperous lives.” Granted this is corny and would be a bit of self-induced martyrdom, but if you did that, wrote that, and meant that it would be a far more noble self-sacrifice.
“Christianity is unpopular.”
Didn’t you just post a study showing that the majority of scientists are Christians? So is Christianity popular or unpopular? I guess it is popular when Christianity being popular is advantageous to you and it is unpopular when Christianity being unpopular is advantageous to you.
Christianity, Hinduism, Islam, Atheism, Judaism etc… are ALL unpopular amongst the other groups (and amongst themselves especially in Christianity and Islam). You think me telling people I am an atheist helps me win hearts and minds in the vast majority of my social situations? You think my own (Christian) family took it well? Do you know how many ‘friends’ I lost when I deconverted? You think being a Muslim makes for a smooth life in this country? How about being Jewish at any point in history? Christians have it the easiest out of everyone in America. There will be social situations where you will be badgered, no doubt; such is the nature of talking religion, but don’t pretend like it is an exclusively Christian experience. Being harassed for your morality argument didn’t show that Christianity is unpopular, that argument would only prove the existence of a deity that gives ‘objective moral values’ and not necessarily the Christian deity. You assumed that he assumed you were a Christian. It is almost like you want to be persecuted for being a Christian.
“Stop! Right now, has your pulse risen? Do you think I’m wrong and are you formulating arguments against me? Has your mood changed? If so, this is exactly what I’m talking about.”
ReplyDeleteLook in the mirror. You were willing to buy revenge with loaned money because you were mad at some guy in a restaurant. You operate a blog that is partially devoted to being angry at atheism. Look at what you wrote in “Onward Christian Soldiers.” Or your selfish gene essay which was most likely designed for you to use the irony of your conclusion to laugh at atheists. Why are you so angry at people who disagree with you? I’ll tell you why my pulse rises.
I get worked up because (besides thinking religions have no merit) this stuff truly matters. Religious people try to control other people’s private lives. Christians (in general) are actively trying to legislate their beliefs (beliefs that atheists generally find deleterious), they then act like their beliefs can’t and shouldn’t be questioned, and you wonder why religion makes atheists angry? I have no problem with evangelizing (I actually enjoy when they come to my door; I usually invite them back), handing out Bibles on campuses, or nativity scenes in public (as long as other groups are allowed to use the area too). It is the legislation and the immunity from criticism that a lot of (but not all) Christians seek that is infuriating to me. This, of course, does not only apply only to Christians. I would get just as mad at Muslims for wanting to legislate their beliefs, and you know they don’t want to be questioned.
“My argument wasn’t perfect.” “Firestorm.”
Agreed; you didn’t even define your terms. I had no idea what you meant by faith the entire time. I suspect that you enjoy starting firestorms. You can use the firestorms to show how ‘unpopular’ Christianity is when that angle suits you.
“Tonight in the restaurant, I could have shouted profanity, made anti-semetic remarks, talked loudly about sex or any other profane thing and I would not have been bothered by a stranger.”
You really think that? Any self respecting parent would have bothered you and you would have been escorted out of the restaurant (if someone didn’t deck you first).
“But I did something even worse: I suggested that maybe God really existed, and that His existence could really be known and not just believed in. That is truly offensive.”
I can’t speak for why the father decided to do what he did, but based on your description it seems like he objected to the merits of the argument and not whether or not the existence of a god could be “known” (that was the young son and his contradictory quote). I think that if a god existed its existence could be known. So I don’t find that to be offensive in the slightest.
Tally-ho
"You could have taken time (a resource) to cuss him out. What is the difference?"
ReplyDeleteThe difference is that I'd happily have him return the favor. A quick Golden Rule question: "Would I want him to do it to me?" comes out with a resounding, "Yes!" I'd be smiling ear to ear if, next time I went to pizza, the man interrupted my dinner and announced defiantly to all at the table that I had previously paid for his dinner and now he had paid for ours.
"Do you think you were a good ambassador for Jesus when you did what you did?"
Yes
"Will that family be more or less likely to persecute theists going forward?"
Less
"Are they more or less likely to convert to Christianity?"
More
"Are their souls more or less likely to be saved because of your actions?"
More
Seriously, good job, by the way. That was honestly a very good assessment of things I valued. Few people can do that. As to your alternative idea: meekness is not the only Christian virtue. Boldness is a valid options, too.
"Didn’t you just post a study showing that the majority of scientists are Christians? So is Christianity popular or unpopular?"
Yes, and that was a surprise to me. You do raise valid points about how every religious group in some place is 'unpopular'. I mention it only to point out this violation of tolerance in a place that is considered by some to be the pinnacle of tolerance (SF area). Also I am curious to hear how Atheists suffer; I confess I am mostly ignorant about this.
"Christians have it the easiest out of everyone in America."
Probably on the whole, I'd agree. But not in the University and not amongst educated folk.
"You think my own (Christian) family took it well?"
I imagine that deconversion was an incredibly painful experience. I'm sorry that you suffered. I am especially sorry if you suffered because of your integrity in following the evidence where you saw it lead.
"not necessarily the Christian deity"
ReplyDeleteTechnically true. But there's a fairly strong correlation with people who make the argument and Christians.
"It is almost like you want to be persecuted for being a Christian."
That's true. And I probably do have made mountains out of molehills, or as it were, crucifixions out of paper cuts. How much did I really suffer here? Not really that much.
"You were willing to buy revenge"
Please, revenge yourself on me next time you see me!
"with loaned money"
How did you hack into financial statements?! That's it. I'm changing my password.
"You operate a blog that is partially devoted to being angry at atheism...Why are you so angry at people who disagree with you?"
It's devoted to truth, and, because I'm surrounded by it where I am, includes truth about God's existence. But this is not driven by a personal anger at atheists. I was angry at the man in the restaurant, but that was sublimated and I was happy by the time I got in my car (Revenge has a nasty aftertaste, you know). False ideas anger me, as my false ideas (as you see them) anger you; these emotions have compelled both of us to write and contend for the truth. And this is my ambition: to seek the truth and to use discussion when possible.
"I suspect that you enjoy starting firestorms."
I must confess that this is true: I like debate. I like to draw people into discussions on these matters. Including you. :)
"You really think that? Any self respecting parent would have bothered you"
Yes. Partly because there are few self respecting parents left.
"I’ll tell you why my pulse rises."
Thank you for your honesty, truly. I appreciate your being honest about your intentions and concerns.
"this stuff truly matters"
Amen! I wish more people would be in agreement with us on this matter.
"Christians (in general) are actively trying to legislate their beliefs (beliefs that atheists generally find deleterious), they then act like their beliefs can’t and shouldn’t be questioned"
It looks like we have found common ground. Christian beliefs, whether they be political or theological, can and should be questioned. Ours is not a purely mystical religion. We have worked hard through the centuries to maintain a rational foundation for our faith. I would stand by you in your criticism of those use Christian faith as a shield against reason.
"Religious people try to control other people’s private lives."
This is true of some groups. I am more persuaded by the Christian positions which argue from God-given human dignity to a free society; the Just state must be democratic/republican because there is no man without sin who can be trusted. I think we would probably agree on many things political.
"I actually enjoy when they come to my door; I usually invite them back"
So what's your address? :)